Hidden History

Mystery: Unique photos of the John Bibby Sons and Co. copper rolling mills, formerly in Window Lane, Garston

This is another guest article, this time from John Owens. John got in touch hoping that I or you, dear readers, could help identify the source of some photos of a copper rolling works featuring an ancestor of his (see main article). I’ll pass it over to John now, who takes up the story.

If anyone reading this does know where these photos come from, please get in touch in the comments box below.

Photos of the John Bibby Sons and Co. copper rolling mills

The John Bibby Sons and Co. copper rolling mills located in Window Lane, Garston, was one of the first industries in what was then a small village, which was then separate from Liverpool. Previously, it had been located across the water, near Wallasey.

Bibby had founded the famous Liverpool shipping line, and in 1836 went into business with Richard Nevill, the manager of the famous Llanelly Copper Works in south Wales, to build and run new copper rolling mills at Poulton-cum-Seacombe on the bank of the Wallasey Pool. There, copper ingots smelted in St. Helens and Swansea were reheated and rolled into sheathing for the then wooden hulls of Bibby’s ships. Many of the 80 or so workers at Seacombe were recruited from copper workers in Swansea, including my great great grandfather David Owens, as well as the works’ manager.

With the extension of the Birkenhead Docks in the 1860s, the Bibbys transferred the mills (and many of the workers) to then green meadows in Window Lane, Garston, in 1865. Many were housed in the “back to front” houses, then called Bankfield Cottages in what is now Brunswick Street. By the 1880s, David’s son, John Owens had become foreman copper roller man and judging from the front page splash in the Garston and Woolton Weekly News when he died in June 1923 an important business figure in Garston. At its peak, Bibbys’ Garston works employed 250 workers, mostly from south and north Wales or their descendants. Apparently, the Bibby family owners had “a paternalistic streak” and provided financial support for Copper Works, FC, which in the 1890s was Garston’s leading amateur football club.

And so we come to a little mystery about which I am seeking the help of your readers in Garston or anywhere else.

Johnny Owens, my grandfather’s older brother, succeeded his father John Owens as foreman copper rollerman at Bibby’s round about 1916.

A recently discovered 82 year old cousin in Woolton has given me copies of four unique photos, which he says were given to him by a bloke in a pub in Garston many years ago. The bloke apparently knew his grandfather, Johnny Owens. My cousin says he thinks the pics were originally published in The Gentleman’s Magazine in about 1915 but I have not found the photos.

Photos of the Copper Works

So, has anyone seen these photos before? Maybe they have copies. Have they been published somewhere else – possibly in some other specialist magazine of the late 19th or early 20th century? Three of the pics are of Bibby’s Garston Copper Works (not to be confused with the Crown Copper Works built by Bibby’s former manager in 1880 on the other side of Window Lane). Two of the older photos include Johnny (b.1875), who is the big guy (22 stone) holding what looks like some kind of measurement instrument. Judging by Johnny’s age, I think the three older, grainy, pics were taken just after he became foreman, say, 1916-17. The fourth photo is a “team” photo of 11 copper workers, probably taken about 1913, and includes Bibby’s manager at the time, Fred Bawden (born in Cornwall, 1857). Johnny is to his left with thumbs in his waistcoat.

John E. Owens is an Emeritus professor at the University of Westminster

Update, 11th October 2023

John adds: ‘The photo (courtesy of Peter Guest) shows workers in the flanging department at John Bibby & Sons’ Copper Works in Window Lane, Garston. Peter tells me that his grandfather (b. 1868) “William “Bill” Guest is the second from the left of the photo, lounging nonchalantly on the massive mallet he must have used in his job”. Peter and I reckon the photo will have been taken about 1900-03. Peter also adds that Bill Guest was captain of Copper Works AFC (sponsored by John Bibby & Sons) in the 1898-99 season. when they played the likes of Everton, Tranmere Rovers, Wrexham, Chester, as well as less known teams, such Llandudno Swifts, White Star Wanderers, Druids, and Liverpool Rubber Works.’

Bibby Flanging Dept c1913

20 Comments on “Mystery: Unique photos of the John Bibby Sons and Co. copper rolling mills, formerly in Window Lane, Garston”

  • David

    says:

    Hi could anyone give me more information ? . I have here what looks like a big coin which says on one side ( garston copper works jubilee) on outer an in the middle says ( presented by j.hartley Bibby ) and on the other side of coin it says ( 1865 To 1915 ). Any information would be amazing thank you .

    Reply

    • John Owens

      says:

      Hi David

      Sorry, it’s taken so long to respond. What your have is a medal commemorating 50 years of Bibby’s in Garston, following a move from Poulton-cum-Seacombe in 1865 to make way for Birkenhead docks. My gt grandfather and namesake received a watch also marking the occasion.

      I am John Owens whose story is above. Please contact me via email, hopefully with a photo of your medal. I can then respond with further detail and documentation of the 1915 occasion.

      Best wishes

      John

      Reply

  • Sian Lloyd-Gibson

    says:

    Hello I was wondering if you have any names of the workers who worked there. My great grandfather James William Gibson worked there and retired there 25th July 1936 after 31 years of service. I’m trying to find as much information as I can. Thank you

    Reply

    • John Owens

      says:

      Hi Sian

      Thanks for getting touch.

      As you will see from the blurb attached to the photo, I think the “team” photo was taken probably about 1925, which would include the period when your great grandfather might have been employed by Bibby’s. I say “might” because across the road from the Bibby works was the Crown Works, originally formed by William Roberts. As I indicate, I am only able to name manager Fred Bawden and my gt uncle Johnny Owens. However, I wondered whether you or your family had a photo of James William Gibson that you could match to my photo – assuming he worked for Bibby’s and not the Crown Copper Works.

      If you find anything do please come back to me.

      Best wishes

      John

      Reply

  • Tim Graham

    says:

    Dear Mr Owens
    I am interested in the football side of things regarding Garston Copper Works FC.
    I have them playing in the Wirral &District league up to 1896-97 and then they joined the Combination
    League in 1897-98 & 1898-99.
    After that they seem to have disappeared
    I would be grateful if you have any other information about them

    Thank you

    Reply

  • John Owens

    says:

    Hi Tim

    With Garston’s rapid industrialisation, amateur football became very popular. My main source on Gaston football at this time is Tom Preston’s 2006 PhD dissertation, which I am happy to send you.

    My understanding from Preston’s research and a few other sources is that Bibby’s Copper Works had a club by 1888, ran several teams, & from 1896-7 competed in the Lancashire Combination. in season 1891-2, they were finalists in the Liverpool Junior Cup. and won the Liverpool and District Domination in seasons 1894-5 and 1896-7. I think that my grandfather Billy played for them; his father my namesake was chief roller man at Bibby’s. At age 17, Billy was the youngest professional in Lancashire.
    As you probably know, at this time, teams relied heavily on patronage, in this case from Bibby’s but as football and the various leagues expanded so traveling and other costs rose significantly. I presume that’s why they disappeared: Bobby’s would not longer support them. As Preston reports ““[I] n the late 1890s there was a concerted effort to elevate the works team to a higher level and the club joined the semi-professional Combination league alongside the reserve teams of Everton and Liverpool. The Combination covered Cheshire, north Wales, and the northern midlands, so the cost and convenience of travel would have been well beyond a normal working-class amateur team” (Preston 2006: 182).

    By 1900, after two seasons in the semi-professional Lancashire Combination, membership of which required more fixtures, travel to uninspiring distant clubs, and paying wages as high as 7/6 per match, the Copper Works FC – which had become Garston’s most senior team – disbanded in the wake of these additional expenses. Preston (2006: 182) suggests that “the parent company came under new management and the subsidisation in money, labour, and time of a semi-professional football team may not have been considered so important”. However, I’m a tad suspicious of this timing since it was not until 1906 that the Broughton Copper Company took over the Bibby Works in Window Lane albeit retaining the Bibby name.)

    Even so, as Preston argues, the financial problems encountered by Copper Works FC “may have deterred other Garston clubs from pitching themselves so highly in the hierarchy of regional football. Garston’s other senior clubs (the Church, Gasworks, and North End clubs), which emerged following the termination of the Copper Works FC, all operated within the Liverpool amateur system (Preston (2006: 180) and vied with each other to become Garston’s senior team.

    If you send me your email address, I’ll send you a pdf of Preston’s dissertation.

    Hope this helps

    Reply

    • Peter Guest

      says:

      I have an original Garston Copper Works AFC schedule of matches for the 1898-99 season. It includes both 1st and 2nd team schedules. Their home ground was Banks Road, Garston and they claimed to have a dressing room on the ground.
      The first team played South Liverpool away on September 10, 1898; Everton at home on September 24, 1898; Tranmere Rovers at home on October 22, 1898 and Liverpool at home on December 3, 1898. My grandfather, William Guest, happened to be 1st team captain for that season and Ernest V. Bibby was the President.
      I can send you a copy of both inside and outside of the tri-fold schedule if you’re interested.

      Reply

      • John Owens

        says:

        Hi Peter
        I would love a copy of the schedule. Since my gt grandfather and namesake worked for Bibby’s in Garston, his son William (b.1880), my grandfather (apparently the youngest professional in Lancashire) may have played for Bibby’s.

        Hopefully, my email will come up below.

        Best

        John

        Reply

      • PETER GUEST

        says:

        Hi John,
        Your email address doesn’t show up so I’m currently at an impasse.
        Peter

        Reply

  • Peter Guest

    says:

    I have a photo of the John Bibby Sons & Co Flanging Department which I thought was around 1910 but could be 1915, because my grandfather appears in the photo and I was guessing his age to be mid-30’s but it could be closer to 40. I can send it to you via email if you wish.

    Reply

    • Tim Graham

      says:

      Yes please
      Thank you for your help in this
      Kind regards

      Tim

      Reply

      • Peter Guest

        says:

        How do I send the photo?

        Reply

        • John Owens

          says:

          Hopefully, my email appears below.

          Many thanks

          John

          Reply

      • John Owens

        says:

        Hi Tim. I need your email to send the Preston dissertation.

        Best

        John

        Reply

    • John Owens

      says:

      Yes, please, Peter. It may include my gt grandfather and namesake, who was foreman copper rollerman.

      Hopefully, my email appears below.

      Best

      John

      Reply

  • Christine Jackson

    says:

    Hello John, my grandfather Thomas Keegan (b. 1880) worked at Bibby’s after he left the army in 1916. He was blinded in an accident around 1935/6 so the only photos I have of him are with bandaged eyes / dark glasses when he was an old man. He could well have been one of the men in the “team photo”. He boarded in Jackson Street then moved to Moss Street on marrying my grandmother Mary Reilly.
    I have not found any reports of the accident he had at Bibby’s but I do know they paid him compensation.
    Would love to know more…
    Regards,
    Christine

    Reply

  • John Owens

    says:

    Hi Christine. Unfortunately, apart from my great uncle Johnny and manager Fred Bawden, I do not names of the others in the “team photo”. If your grandfather had his accident in 1935-36, it must have been just before most of the work was transferred to ICI Metals in Swansea and Birmingham with some 80 employees transferred to the Birmingham, Manchester and Widnes areas..However, by May 1937 work had been resumed on a temporary basis for 50 men.

    I have no knowledge of your grandfather’s accident but presume you will have checked the Garston Weekly News and the 1939 Register, which may list his condition and place of employment. I also have no knowledge of the existence of any of the firm’s business records.

    Reply

  • George Owens

    says:

    Dear all,
    Would anyone know how I could go about finding old pictures of Gladstone Street ( between Freemason Row, down off Leeds Street, and Naylor Street) circa 1843?

    Many thanks,
    George Owens
    george.owens@outlook.com

    Reply

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